Weinstein’s Question

“No homeopathy, just care, attention, good nutrition and absolutely NO JABS”,

I answered to an online questionnaire, set on parents’ attitudes to quantity, if any, vaccinations they’d consider for their kids, by Daniel Weinstein, who maybe regretted this step later on!

Daniel Weinstein: Care, attention and good nutrition are essential for everyone. However, viruses and bacteria don’t really monitor your habits. Vaccination works. It saves lives. It’s silly to reject them.

Chris Hemmings The point, my friend, is that a healthy immune system in a healthy body can do all the monitoring it needs to and establish recognition of countless potential agents of risk – be they bacterial, viral or other micro-organism. Vaccination is a crude, blunderbuss approach, never once having been subjected to a double blind or other controlled trial.

Look around at, say, the US population today. Picture of health? 25%adults diabetic and that figure in exponential increase. Obesity rife. Asthma, autism, allergies are a plague of your children and young adults.

Great times for those with shares in Pharmaceutical companies, mind you

Daniel Weinstein Chris Hemmings Ah, the Big Pharma conspiracy. I should have known.

Chris Hemmings Wow, something you can really get your teeth into. Do I use the C word?? Of course not – there is no “conspiracy”. Whyever should they bother to conspire – they’ve got an ongoing market, for heaven’s sake, so they’ll supply it. That’s business common sense as you well know.

But by shouting about such a scarlet herring you carefully avoid having to address my substantive point – namely the dire state of health demonstrated by the population of the US of A.

Which gets worse every day.

Andrea Leong Some people are unhealthy due to lifestyle, therefore we all shouldn’t get vaccinations? Chris, you are the one who needs to explain more fully. I’m pretty sure some healthy people contract vaccine preventable diseases. Vaccines are one of the easiest things we can do to lessen the incidence and severity of contagious disease.

Chris Hemmings In 1980 5% of Americans were diabetic, in 2009 over 25% were diabetic and the curve has gone exponential. That is not “some” people, Andrea, that’s one in four and rising rapidly.

If I governed such an abject disaster I’d panic. And then I’d look at all the probable and possible causes of such a gross deterioration in health standards over a period of unrivalled prosperity.

And yes healthy, unvaccinated people do contract these “vaccine preventable” illnesses. And they recover quickly and completely leaving within the body a lifelong lasting memory of the incident. This is the immune system, developed over four billion years and compromised by meddling in just 200.

Vaccines, it seems to me, are the simplest way we have to compromise the medium term health of the population and do away with its long term health totally. We could so easily work, instead, to boost innate, natural responses by ensuring optimal nutritional standards, good living conditions and informed nursing and medical care, to assist people through periods of infection.

Or would you wait until the whole population is diabetic, obese, asthmatic, allergic etc, etc……?

Andrea Leong Argh, this page! Responses did eventually show up for me, but after I typed a reply, the page refreshed and cleared it. I’m on fb groups Stop the AVN and Informed Citizens Against Vaccination Misinformation if you want to continue the discussion.

Daniel Weinstein And Chris, I don’t really want to use this page to discuss the health of the nation with you. You believe in the naturalist fallacy. I get it. Be natural and all will be well. Like it used to be in the good old days.

Chris Hemmings No, Daniel, I look forward, not backward. We live in an era where we have a vast capacity to master so many problems and yet modern medicine has as a key foundation an untested, profoundly damaging quack remedy poorly copied from peasant behaviour by a 19th century fraudster.

Surely the health of the nation is what this whole issue is about but I’m happy to agree to differ so long as you dont misunderstand, mislabel and misquote my stance. Vaccination is a global disaster area and the sooner that’s faced up to the better for all of us.

Daniel Weinstein Chris Hemmings Do you know anyone who has had polio?

Chris Hemmings Of course. But you keep changing the focus and keep looking backwards. Enjoy.

Lara Lohne   Chris Hemmings, you say, “Look around at, say, the US population today. Picture of health? 25%adults diabetic and that figure in exponential increase. Obesity rife. Asthma, autism, allergies are a plague of your children and young adults.”

However, your assumption that these diseases and disorders are somehow linked or the result of vaccination is flawed. Let me point out where the flaws lie for you:

1. Diabetes: there are two types of diabetes, type 1 or junile diabetes, and type II or what used to be called adult onset diabetes. They no longer refer to it as adult onset because more children are developing it now then before, so the type II isn’t strinctly limited to adults. Type I diabetes is typically present from birth, even though it can take several years to find it. Type II diabetes is the result of lifestyle choices, ill healthy and poor eating habits. Nothing more then that, and no vaccine will trigger or hinder the development of diabetes.

2. In many cases asthma is also due to lifestyle, as it is more frequent in children exposed to second hand smoke. It can also be genetic. I had three children who were prone to night time asthma attacks, typically when seasons and weather changed. Their dad was the same way when he was little. They grew out of it and none of them have any problems with asthma. I on the other hand has asthma like symtpoms, but it is not technical asthma because it is due to damage my lungs suffered during a bout of pertussis when I was 17.

3. I wouldn’t say allergies are on the rise either, but that we are more able to test for them and better able to provide releif from them also. Allergies are just a mild immune response to something that our system is sensetive to, I think if we actually looked back at history, we’d find that many people suffered from allergies of one type or another, but it wasn’t ever considered anything to be concerned about. Of course things change, and I think a lot of it is over dramatizing things and making them out to be worse then they really are, which in and of itself is unhealthy.

4. You likening autism and these other diseases and conditions to deadly disease (the plague) is, to be blunt, ridiculous and insulting. There is nothing deadly about autism and it isn’t anything to be afraid of either. Multiple studied done for more then a decade have found there is no causal link between vaccinations and autism. In fact research is showing more and more genetics behind it and there isn’t the exponential increase in autism like many would like us to believe. Studied done both in the UK and in the US have found, many adults are being identified now as having an ASD, but as children they were severely learning disabled or mentally retarded or in cases of high functionality, completely overlooked. The diagnostic criteria in place now is more indepth and detailed to better identify the multitude of traints that are present in any disorder found on thr autism spectrum. When comparing numbers of adults who have been identified as having an ASD to children being diagnosed now the numbers are remarkably close. Autism is a neurological disorder of development. The brain is constructed differently, therefore wiring is different. No amount of biomedical treatment will do anything to change the contruction and rewiring of the brain. Proper therapies can however. And please alsp try to keep in mind, autism sepctrum disorders are developmental delay, not stasis. Even without interventions a person will progress. With proper therapies they will progress significantly faster. My youngest child has autism. He was born with it, showed differences from my other five children from birth. It wasn’t until he reached a developmental platue and began to regrss in some skills that we realized why he was different, but we knew he was different from birth.

What it all comes down to, with the examples you’ve given is poor lifestyle choices or better medical diagnostic methods. It has nothing to do with vaccines.

Chris Hemmings “A” plague, not the Plague, Lara.

But this site has twice wiped off my reply to you so ciao. [This was indeed most frustrating. Later I found the conversation – one of many, many which developed out of Daniel’s original question had switched itself to my home page – thenceforward twas a doddle.]

Peter van Loon Chris Hemmings “Vaccination […] never once having been subjected to a double blind or other controlled trial.” *cough* bullsh*t *cough*

Chris Hemmings OK, Peter,you try to find any but I tell you there have been no such trials ever done on the effectiveness of these concoctions. Apart from anything else it’s impossible!

Peter van Loon I though you were talking about safety, not effectiveness. But reading your post again, it’s so rambling that it’s impossible to tell. So I don’t know whether you’re moving the goalposts or just bad at expressing yourself.

Chris Hemmings Wriggle, wriggle.

Chris Hemmings What’s unclear about: ” Vaccination is a crude, blunderbuss approach, never once having been subjected to a double blind or other controlled trial.”  ?

Andrea Leong  It’s unclear whether you mean trials for safety or for effectiveness (in which case I would assume you meant both), but when Peter asserted that such trials had been carried out, you replied that they hadn’t been done for effectiveness. Thus it appears you’ve already accepted the safety of vaccines, yet this is at odds with your description: “untested, profoundly damaging quack remedy poorly copied from peasant behaviour by a 19th century fraudster”.

But this is all moot, since it is clear from your overall body of posts that you believe vaccines are neither safe nor effective.

Btw, this site seems to be working fine for me know. Pity, because I don’t like what I see.

Chris Hemmings Ah, but we don’t always like what’s good for us do we, Andrea?

BTW, there’s no way I just said “they hadn’t been done for effectiveness”. That was Peter, bless him, reading double Dutch in some rambling manner. My statement is crystal clear. And true.

Andrea Leong You’re right, Chris, I don’t like getting needles, but I got my whooping cough booster a few months. Guess what? No ill effects apart from a warm shoulder for the rest of the afternoon (although I suppose someone will tell me that my health has been forever compromised).

Chris Hemmings Hopefully not – but was there any benefit?

Anyway, if you’re “becoming a scientist” that very phrase is deeply in your favour so, yeah, just keep an open mind.

I guess we should stop “needling” each other, now – enjoy your studies.

Lara Lohne  Chris Hemmings either way you spell it, a plague or the Plague makes little difference. It still infers deadly disease and suffering and that is not autism, nor it is any of the other disorders you find so offensive that people have.

Jamie Masciantonio and Type II or adult onset diabetes is not necessarily poor health choices. Genetics still plays a roll in that, as well as other health problems (such as a high number of people with thyroid disorders are also becoming diabetic later in life)

Chris Hemmings I refer you, Jamie, to a graph I posted a few weeks ago: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=424820484221693&set=a.176205205749890.29909.100000812

Chris Hemmings Now that graph has entered exponential phase in just thirty years. This cannot in any shape or form be taken as indicating genetic change. You’d need hundreds of years and a vast selective ADVANTAGE from diabetes for that to occur!

Chris Hemmings And note the originators of the information shown are the United States Centres for Disease Control and Prevention.

Chris Hemmings Lara, plague is “a pestilance, affliction or calamity on a large scale”.

Chris Hemmings But, anyway, I do not find all these disorders “offensive” – in fact i have profound sympathy for the sufferers and for their families. And, indeed for society at large as these conditions can clearly all share a common causative factor – the modern dash for supposed preventative vaccines rather than traditional nursing care.

Erwin Alber · (Friends with Shelley Tzorfas)

I’d rather be called silly than having to live with a vaccine injury, or ending up with a vaccine-injured child, Daniel.

Lara Lohne Autism is not a disease. Therefore for you to lump autism in with things like obesity, diabetes, etc. is naive and ill informed on your part.

Chris Hemmings Lara I used the word “disorder” which covers the very wide autistic spectrum, from Asperger’s right down to the more catatonic and destructive behaviours. Disorder also can be used for diabetes and obesity. However the term “disease” would be equally applicable for all three.

Whilst I remain civil with posters strongly supportive of the vaccination philosophy it seems that you are not willing return the same courtesy. I am neither naive nor ill informed in these matters, as is quite clear from the answers I have already given. In fact I have carried out twenty years scientific research and am very well and widely informed.

I doubt, however, that you have anything like as much experience, information or understanding of the issues involved. Clearly not, in fact, from the nature of your postings.

Lara Lohne There is a big difference between the terms disorder and disease. Disease implies some amount of control in whether or not you get it. Disorder is otherwise. That being the case, Obesity is a matter of choice because it can be completely avoided by making wise and healthy lifestyle choices. The same isn’t always true of diabetes as type I is typically from birth, and genetics can play a significant role in the development of type II. However, there are lifestyle choices that can be made to significantly minimize your genetic risk to type II diabetes, therefore, also not a disorder. Autism, on the other hand, there is no control over whether or not a person has it, just as their isn’t any control over whether or not a person will be born with Down Syndrome. That is the difference between a disorder and a disease; control over the outcome at least to a degree. Autism is genetic, and until they perfect a prenatal test for it, like they have for Down Syndrome, the number of children born with autism will not change. Having a child with autism myself though, I don’t feel a genetic disorder is any reason to terminate a pregnancy. I know others will disagree with that. I have learned so much from my son that I never would have learned if he hadn’t been born the way he is. I love him for who he is, and while he has autism, autism doesn’t have him, and he is more then his diagnosis. Therefore, your ignorant statements that autism is a disease are highly insulting to every autistic individual ever, and there have been a lot then you are even aware of I’m sure.

Chris Hemmings Autism is NOT a genetic state. If it were, how come there was no autism prior to around 1945? Sudden beneficial mutation all over the World? And yes, I am a geneticist.

Down’s syndrome is, of course, a duplication of a whole chromosome and so clearly a genetic disease or a chromosomal disorder. They’re only words, woman, and they are what we use to describe the world and communicate with each other.

A reference on “Genetic diseases” for you : http://www.medicinenet.com/genetic_disease/article.htm

As for diabetes just look at graph I posted a bit earlier – 8 posts up – and see a 500% increase in thirty years. There’s NO genetics in that but we urgently need to isolate all the lifestyle choices and changes that have caused it. I’m confident that I can untangle the threads involved.

Anyway, whilst I have profound sympathy for your personal circumstances and I admire the way you obviously work positively and constructively with your child, your continued use of gross and coarse insults does not enamour me of you. Nor does it support any case that you might construct. Be civil or shut up.

Genetic Disease Causes, Types, and Conditions: http://www.medicinenet.com/genetic_disease/article.htm

Martin Bouckaert I’m sorry, Chris, but my autism is most certainly not a disease. 20 years of scientific research? 20 million years of researching the wrong thing and getting the wrong information isn’t worth two minutes learning about it from an accredited professional. If you think autism can be categorised as a disease, then you are, indeed, misinformed. Autism is not a disease, there is no epidemic or plague of autism, and no one suffers from autism. The only thing autistic people suffer from is morons that fail to understand it.

Chris Hemmings Martin, I really have no concern as to what you name “the condition” or, even, the nest or spectrum of conditions. Please, you suggest something – I find it hard to relate to just a negative.

As for your faith in “accredited professionals” the whole point of research is that you look at a range of viewpoints, of data, of case studies and case histories. You do not just go to a single agency or individual.

Martin Bouckaert It’s called autism. It’s not what I name it, it’s what it’s called. It’s just like how a car is called a car. It’s not called a car because someone wants to call it a car, and you don’t see people running around calling it a gollywog or something they’ve just decided to call it on the spot. This isn’t about what I want to name things, or how easy or hard you find it to relate to things (which I might add, if you are allowing how difficult it is for you to relate to influence your opinion, then why are you acting like it’s not a biased one and it’s a bottom-line fact?).

It’s about who’s done the work, and the science, and knows how to interpret the data correctly because they’ve received training to do so, and have the credentials to prove it. That’s WHY credentials EXIST in the first place. It’s not about faith, that’s WHY we make SURE that people have credentials – if it was just about faith, then we’d be listening to just about anyone that’s “done their research.” I think if you are going to pretend like you, with your lack of credentials, stand above someone with credentials in matters of science and research, then that is simply arrogance, and I will tell you now that I will place more “faith” in someone with the credentials to back up their experience and work than someone who does not have the credentials.

It’s absolutely not about credentials, it’s about what you can prove that you are capable of, and about what you can demonstrate you know. You are no expert, and it shows in your dismissiveness of the experts. Do I detect a little jealousy? Competitiveness?

Chris Hemmings Prior to around 1950 the term autistic was not used and there were few with the range of behavioural characteristics now associated with this descriptor. Now the “diagnosis” is common and many fall into this category. “Autism” is found in many differing situations and for many, many different states of being. You could equally say this about cars, I agree. However, I’m, as it were, not a car. So what am I?

You write:

“It’s absolutely not about credentials, it’s about what you can prove that you are capable of, and about what you can demonstrate you know.”

I so agree with that and, in this topic I’m more and better “expert” than most.

About greencentre

Non grant supported hence independent scientist, green activist, writer and forest planter.
This entry was posted in Biomedical-ecology, Herd immunity, Medical industrial political complex, Scientific method, Uncategorized, Vaccination, Vaccine damage. Bookmark the permalink.

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