On the left wing libertarian site people were asked for views on vaccines.
Thaddeus Scotia POISON … Gov’t controlled death …
Nenko Manolov The backbone of the healthcare system. They create customers for life.
Jake Tompkins Skate they are a very important invention that prevent people from getting illnesses.
Matt Roach There are no opinions, only facts and misapplication of facts
The Left-Libertarian I am no biologist, but could the mercury and other poisons be there to weaken the immune system to accept the disease so they can form anti bodies against it?
Ignatius Crumb I think the key to this one is “I am no biologist.” If there is a study on this, as long as it is peer reviewed, we should listen to the recommendations.
Darren Dupre The mercury is supposed to be a preservative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy Adam Blubaugh Highly credible Cochrane Collaboration, Flu Vaccines of No Benefit http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/876/84/
Ignatius Crumb AHRP [who re-published the Cochrane Review, above] is a group claiming to be defending people from scary vaccines and is led by a doctor convicted of fraud and who has had his medical license stripped from him. [This is totally incorrect, the President is of legal background and she works with a board of directors who are a fairly mainstream alliance of medics and lay folk – http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/28/88/. Thus, their Mission Statement: “The Alliance for Human Research Protection (AHRP) is a national network of lay people and professionals dedicated to advancing responsible and ethical medical research practices, to minimizing the risks associated with such endeavors and to ensuring that the human rights, dignity and welfare of human subjects are protected.” ]
Ignatius continued: Don’t buy into this anti-vaccine hysteria, particularly if you don’t know any facts about it or don’t know how to read data, it only feeds the same machine that denies climate change- the machine of superstitious ignorance. Get peer reviewed info at EBSCO databases or any other academic journal site, make sure that it is credited as a reliable source. The internet is home to a lot of wild theories and most are just like trashbags on a city street, they’re annoying, they get in the way and people make a big deal about them, but ultimately they just need to be collected and disposed of.
Bobby Volm In theory they should work, and have been proven to do so, however putting the chemicals they do in them gives me reason to worry. I have family members that have never gotten them and rarely get sick. I refuse to get a flu shot.
Chris Hemmings Honestly, Bobby, there’s nothing in logic which suggests they should help at all. The pursuit of vaccines is based on the premise, the assumption and the faith that they do work. Why should injecting random shreds of bacteria or virus or even the whole bug into the blood system improve ones ability to fight off infection? If you try the process with no toxic adjuvant materials added you get utterly no response. If you become infected naturally and then get well your body goes through a natural process and builds an even more resilient system – this is the only truly functional immunity and it’s brought us through a very long period of evolution very well!
Nicholas Alexander Cook Chris, If you understood how the human body forms immunnities, you’d immediately understand why vaccines work — our bodies, when combating a virus, have generalized cells that work to destroy all manner of nasty things — but they take a while to work. With the worst of diseases, they take too long or are not “strong enough” to fight it off at all. Once an infection is thwarted, the body makes special markers called antibodies, which can recognize the same infection when it comes around again; they mark the viral/bacterial organism and specialized cells come along and destroy them before they cause problems. Vaccines have weakened forms of viruses, which allow our body to form antibodies, but do not make us sick; and these antibodies allow our bodies to thwart the actual virus when we come into contact with it, so we don’t have to suffer through it and possibly die. As for “herd immunity” — the more people get vaccinated, the more difficult it will be for viruses to spread. This helps protect people who are immunocompromised or cannot be vaccinated (due to allergies or other medical conditions) by shielding them from exposure to these viruses.
Chris Hemmings There are physiological outcomes after natural infection leading to lifelong recognition and response to the infective organism. Yes I am aware of these phenomena. I’ve worked over several years in an immunology lab, performing immuno-assays and other such tasks. If you simply inject a vaccine strain bacterium into the blood system the body quickly gets rid of it and keeps no record. You have to add adjuvants of sundry chemicals plus “generic bacterial matter” to create an immune response whereby antibodies are encoded. Their use and their specificity and all the co-resultant collateral damage are then to be sorted out Herd immunity is a total sham. Even the antibody production ability soon wears off. Why do you think you get measles outbreaks in fully vaccinated school populations? Anyway, I must go now else Ignatius will say I was up all night performing cultish activities by the full moon.
Alok Dhaundiyal It should be delivered at very first level. Vaccines are vital part for eradicating or preventing something might not happen in future so it must be provided with suitable means and by the verified health NGOs.
Chris Hemmings Good diet, lifestyle and shelter are the three key factors to resistance of infection. Promoting them equals promoting equality and social harmony, promoting good diet for everyone and rejecting so much of today’s barbarity. NGOs? Like WHO? YMBJ!
Alok Dhaundiyal Yup! WHO can’t cover the every part of the world. There are some societies whose main objectives is to make their own country Healthy and progessive like we have Lion Clubs all across the India. Altho’ we have red cross society is there yet some guys endeavour themselve to help the nation whom we say,”NON GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION”. Some are for profit ; some,social welfare. You got it, pal.
Ignatius Crumb They stop people from dying from diseases and that is good. They should be administered for free at schools and in workplaces. Also, don’t put your children at risk by making a scientifically unsound decision based on sketchy information.
Bobby Volm Their ingredients should be made public and people should make their own decisions about them. Never should they be required or mandatory.
Ignatius Crumb The ingredients should be public knowledge, but why should people be allowed to make their own decisions about them? The public health risk for something like a mass polio or smallpox outbreak is enormous, but because of cost the vaccines aren’t being given. The autism scare was nonsense that was based on flawed data from one heavily edited paper. I get what you’re saying, but the statistical likelihood of having an adverse reaction is far lower than the risks involved with not getting the vaccine AND there is potential for others to be affected by an outbreak. This is an area that I believe a little dictatorship is necessary, like waste disposal or climate change. I know that’s not popular, but it just seems like the best answer for the most good. I’m not trying to troll btw, I honestly want your side.
Chris Hemmings Disease resistance always comes from within – it is due to one’s own strong biology/physiology. There is no evidence that the voodoo style cocktail of bacteria/virus particles plus assorted system toxifiers add anything beneficial to ones natural resistance to infection. Furthermore there is much evidence, vast reams of evidence, that toxic effects cause widespread collateral damage in many, many recipients. Wakefield reported on a very small group of autistic kids and what he wrote has been many times supported and corroborated. However the critique did not start with Andy – his work is but a tiny shred in the full picture. His defrocking by the GMC “Star Chamber” does nothing to disprove his evidence which remains totally valid. Mass public medication is a totally appalling idea and the idea of “herd immunity” just shows how the Administrators thing of everyone. Maybe better call it “Flock immunity” – for the sheep who are shepherded into it!
https://bmeandothersciences.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/why-are-socialists-so-in-awe-of-science/ – Why are socialists so in awe of science?
Ignatius Crumb The body is not so e magical chamber that exists in a pure state, it is constantly in interaction with the environment and is always in a state of change with cells dying and being made new, food and water being taken in and is under constant exposure to other organisms, the majority of which are beneficial to us like the bacteria that live on our hands and the ones that live in our gut. However, some are quite dangerous and can in fact kill us, particularly children and old people whose immune systems are incapable of fighting off diseases, which of course are completely different from an infection both in quality and the way in which they infiltrate the body. Pertussis kills infants that have no immune system capable of fighting it off, therefore a vaccine is necessary.
The Left-Libertarian That is pretty silly Chris, you might as well say “fire resistance come from our body, so firemen don’t need special clothes”. Science can improve/help our body.
Ignatius Crumb Our bodies are not composed of humors that are in balance and upset by some magical process, we are permeable beings interacting with our world, in which many organisms have adapted to parasitically feed off of us to gain for their own species benefit. To deny that vaccines and science don’t hold answers is a wildly ignorant point of view that is disseminated by people like Chris Hemmings, who by the way is a member of the VACCINE RESITANCE Movement or some such wild eyed silliness. He’s disseminating bad information based on feelings and intuition that can get people killed, please don’t listen to his brand of Humist Skepticism, it has been discredited by science over and over again. You can see in his blog post (a reminder that it isn’t data, but opinion based) that he hasn’t accepted science and should be taken only as an opinion. This is the same kind of nonsense spewed by Ray Comfort about evolution, he’s either ignorant of how to read data or is in fact actively covering up said data for ideological reasons.
Bobby Volm Ignatius, you’re sounding like you’re in favor of mandatory vaccination, which is an insane thing to say on a libertarian page. If they work, then fine…get one, but you have no reason to worry about other people not getting them if you’re so convinced they work.
Bobby Volm “why should people be able to make their own decisions about them?” jesus fuck are you kidding me ?
Ignatius Crumb I am in favor of mandatory vaccination of infants and kids, sorry if I wasn’t clear about that. Take a sec to note that it’s a left libertarian page, and there is a lot of gradient involved with the concept. People shouldn’t have free choice in all situations, that’s a recipe for disaster. I’m a Leninist, it says so right in my profile. I just don’t think people should be able to put into the commons dangerous things like diseases without some kind of control imposed. I’m all for mandatory sex education, cooking classes, community cleanup time; anything that has a social component that isn’t being met should be decided democratically and implemented, even if there is some element of coercion involved. I’m not an anarchist by any means. I have to say, you didn’t answer my question at all, you just reacted. There is an issue with other not getting them in that if they do contract something that can kill and it mutates, which is the norm not the exception (bird flu is up to H7N5 now), that mutation can affect people with the vaccination. It’s a public, social health question, not an individual one.
Chris Hemmings Yes, that was as I surmised you thought, Ignatius, which was why I posted a blog on an issue which deeply puzzles me – why the left allows the Big Pharm/Medical Establishment to dictate procedures and to manipulate attitudes by publishing and publicising fabricated/contrived data. I think, although the piece is essentially meant to be humerous, there’s more than a germ of truth in it. That’s why I’m more libertarian in my approach – I term myself green humanist or somesuch.
Ignatius Crumb You’re promoting ideas that have been roundly rejected by every kind of empirical evidenced based research and contribute to a deep ignorance that is pernicious, crude and superstitious. Your brand of skepticism denies any kind of research as relevant and your group cherry picks data to promote your ideological agenda to the detriment of children and old people by preying on peoples lack of understanding about science. You’re a pack of frauds that should be banned from publishing, tv and radio. Your kind of superstition is exactly why a dictatorship of the proletariat is needed, to expunge this false consciousness from the commons to usher in the second enlightenment. You folks are no better than the damn Christian Scientists, faith based healers, Scientologists, reflexologists, crystal users or any other science denying wackos. The 10th century is calling and they want their ignorance back. Your kind is exactly the type that allows their children to die from easily avoided diseases and is protected by a bourgious state that reinforces ignorance, shame on you for lying to so many people.
Chris Hemmings But I am deeply scientific as well, and, if you browse my blog site you’ll find a very wide set of discussions of the whole vaccination minefield. Essentially I feel I can and do demonstrate how vaccination is a very dangerous farce and a fraud and actually undermines medics’ abilities to aid populations towards optimal good health. There’s no evidence they work and there’s so much evidence that they cause a wide range of chronic illnesses up to and including death – cot death of recently jabbed babies and chronic debilitating conditions like SSPE, subaccute schlerotising panencephalitis. The correct approach, as I see it, is to optimise general health and nutrition in the population. This is my humanism and it works. Deaths marked down to measles occur today but only to children living in gross third world poverty. The solution is NOT a measles jab, it is to provide good food and clean shelter and pure water. They die of poverty, not measles.
I “Like” the Facebook site “Vaccine resistance movement” – they’re Canadian and are keen to open people’s eyes to the falsity of the vaccination lobby. There are many other even better groups – “The International Medical Council on Vaccination” and “The Informed Parent” for example.
Shall I deal with the “silly” quote now? To whit, the suggestion ” you might as well say “fire resistance come from our body, so firemen don’t need special clothes”. ” Do you really need me to say that nobody ever said we have any fire resistance in our skins. Must I point out that our physiological sensitivities to our bacterial comrades – for they live too – have been developed over four billion years of continuous evolution and they are pretty f***ng good by now. Science has only been dabbling in this topic for just over 100 years (and I do NOT count Jenner as scientific!) I give you two more blogs on the Quasi Science of Vaccinology:
Ignatius Crumb Quoting your own blog only points to your lack of substantial data. Your premise that children don’t die of measles in first world nations is wrong and your whole mode to appear reasonable when faced with criticism is just the same as any other faith based community trying to appear relevant in the 21st century. You are member of a cult, pure and simple. For anyone reading this, seriously, go to a academic journal site and look this stuff up for yourselves, it’s readily available, all you have to do is be able to discern the difference between an internet activist and real research. I realize that it’s pointless to try and reason with a person of faith, so I’m done with this conversation now. Here’s the database resource: http://www.ebscohost.com
Chris Hemmings Quoting my own blog is a short cut – the blogs quote other sources so’s you get the independent data as well. But Ignatius, you are so didactic, closed book, the Earth is flat.
1 – I am correct about measles fatalities which are virtually all in third world poverty situations.
2 – You criticise me for being reasonable? Oh dear….
3 – And I am a “member of a cult”. What is it – ritual sacrifices at full moon? For the record, this assertion is wholly without truth – tell me are you a cultist, Ignatius. Is it common where you come from? Has this any relevance to health issues?
4 – However belief in vaccines IS a faith and it is absolutely an unproven methodology. Clearly you cannot prove a negative – not getting measles after having been vaccinated does NOT prove the vaccine’s effectiveness.
5 – Yeah, I know about science, writing scientific papers and reading them. And UNDERSTANDING them, too.
Chris Hemmings “Animal Farm” comes to mind quite strongly, after reading a number of the comments here.