In fact the Immunogenetics Technician, set the following task on a discussion platform I got called in to:
“Vaccination is a bloody good idea and it works. Discuss.”
Me: Well, I got invited in and, as it’s early in the day, I’ll add a bit – but where to start when there’s already over 500 posts? I’ve run thro’ some – not all – but get a feel of most in this group fence sitting or having utter hostility to the idea of questioning the barstardised medieval folk remedy now known as “Vaccination” or “Immunisation”.
So I’m probably in a minority of one when I point out, deeply scientifically, that not only is the process wholly unproven – there are no correctly controlled trials of any of the potions used in this process – but also there is considerable collateral damage arising from their use, ranging from instant death, through prolonged death (SSPE, cancers) and profound and/or permanent physiological illness such as autism.
- Look at the science – what’s in a vaccine? Why?
- Look at the science – what happens to your physiology? Why?
- Look at the scientists – who directs their research and statements? Why?
Oh yes, and there’s also Andy Wakefield who had the temerity, as a scientist, to publish a mild critique of one particular vaccine and got crucified for it. What he and his colleagues wrote was and is still true – all that happened was the Establishment squashed him.
And now some light reading:
On the nature of outcomes and science in it: https://bmeandothersciences.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/a-very-high-potentiation/
Intellectuals eh? OK, process the above and get back to me.
Richard, the Technician: “there are no correctly controlled trials of any of the potions used in this process – but also there is considerable collateral damage arising from their use, ranging from instant death, through prolonged death (SSPE, cancers) and profound and/or permanent physiological illness such as autism.”
Oh no. Not again….
Me: You can write but not read then, Richard.
Richard: I’m heading out to work (in immunology lab – I’ll ask the post docs in the antibody group about adjuvents when I get into work.)
But I’ll take a look when I get back tonight.
I was groaning at the “vaccines cause autism”
It’s like the 1990’s never happened….
Me: OK, Richard, so you are not exactly unbiased in your assessments here, are you, working for:
“Using world-class embryonic stem cell and recombineering technologies, Kymab has developed a proprietary human antibody discovery platform, Kymouse™. The platform is designed to have a superior repertoire of B-cell mediated immune responses to current in vivo systems. We are using the Kymouse™ platform to discover and develop potent and selective therapies.”
So someone saying, from a totally independent but very well informed, scientific position that vaccines are intrinsically both damaging and a pre-Victorian quack mythology is never gonna please you. It makes you cornered, in fact, and makes you fight for issues not here under discussion. Like your income, your career and stuff. Thus your conducting this discussion here is way out of a good idea as emotion inevitably overrides objectivity.
And yes the 1990s happened and yes vaccines – not just the MMR – most certainly do give rise to physiological damage such as the patterns known as autistic spectrum disorders. And not one of the “scientific studies” published to convince the public otherwise bears any weight whatsoever.
Jack : Got to love the instant dismissal of an actual scientist as “biased” just because he has scientific fact backing up his side of the argument. How convenient.
Don’t listen to *him*… he’s biased because he can actually support his statement with evidence, when all we can do is use supposition and scare tactics and bullshit!”
And not one of the “scientific studies” published to convince the public otherwise bears any weight whatsoever.
A trait it shares with the belief that vaccines cause autism and other behavioral disorders.
Billy: well im New but seems like the same assholes
Billy: same counterproductive non constructive shit
Billy : and some of you are even eating it haha child you need to calm down with all that temper and remember that we are all in this together
Richard: I wonder what scientific studies did to earn the “scare-quotes” to suggest they are somehow duplicitous?
And to which results is he referring that don’t have any bearing on whether or not vaccines like the MMR cause autism.
I can think of some.
“yes vaccines – not just the MMR – most certainly do give rise to physiological damage such as the patterns known as autistic spectrum disorders”
Curious then how the medicial establishment has investigated this claim throughly and found no supporting evidence for this position at all. Whatsoever.
Richard: By the way, thanks for googling the company I work for. We immunise mice strains we engineer and look at the antibodies they kick out from the genetically altered immune systems. It’s very cool stuff.
Has nothing whatsoever to do with immunising humans against pathogens (not yet)
Me: So you’re all just setting up systems to “keep mice healthy”, are you? Can’t imagine there’s much money in that for a private company. Web site didn’t really give that impression, somehow…..
And then you suggest: “Curious then how the medicial establishment has investigated this claim thoroughly and found no supporting evidence for this position at all.”
Why is that curious? If you, for example, were the source of cot-death would you own up to it? And, of course, the list goes on, and on, and on.
Jack: Well, obviously. Why would scientists be accurate or truthful. After all they have the entire sciency thing to maintain. Obviously their only motive for being truthful is to make people think they’re smart and all.
Richard: “So you’re all just setting up systems to “keep mice healthy”, are you? Can’t imagine there’s much money in that for a private company. Web site didn’t really give that impression, somehow…”
No Chris, you don’t understand. The mice, we have designed through genetic engineering to be animal-human hybrids. That is to say that on a biochemical level we have altered their genome to contain some human immunoglobulin genes inserted precisely into the relevant mouse locus, thus conserving normal control of gene expression and maximising genetic stability, specifically on the parts that construct the immune system and tell it how to behave.
The practical upshot of which is when we immunise the mice, the B-cells, T-cells and antibodies they kick out are HUMANised immune cells not mouse (murine) immune cells.
This all gets a bit complicated from here on out, with talk of stable B-cell maturation pathways and heavy and light chain variable and stable regions, correct Ig isotype, class switching and in vivo somatic hypermutation.
But the general idea is the mice we make are research platforms for the next generation of drug discovery engines, which will be derived from antibodies (which are specific targets of specific receptors and cell surface membranes) rather than pharmacology, which..er isn’t.
How we make a profit is, we sell the mice.
Richard: Why is that curious?
Curious, that your claim “vaccines cause autism” has been refuted and not borne out in any way by the professionals who have investigated that claim extensively and found not one shred of evidence to support it.
Chris Hemmings: No Richard, it’s you who don’t understand but, however, I do apologise as sarchasm often don’t come over well in chat rooms. Trust me, I never thought you were attempting to make money by running a health service for mice – not this side of Beatrix Potter books, anyway.
The “refutation” you talk of is totally bogus, every time it has been attempted. You’ll find that expanded on my blog. The stance taken that these reagents are benevolent and do not inflict collateral damage on recipients is the actual callous disregard in this whole sorry saga. You go out and talk with some of the countless numbers of parents WORLDWIDE who can recount again and again the same set of tragic results visited upon their kids through vaccination and maybe, just maybe, your cognitive dissonance will be shattered.
“Found no evidence” – just like Admiral Nelson – “I see no ships” with telescope to his blind eye.
What you at KYMAB seem to be doing is analogous to fixing Rolls Royce jet engines to a broken tricycle with no seat and no front wheel. I’m sure you’re all excellent technically but, hey, I can think of far far better projects to work on.
Richard: “No Richard, it’s you who don’t understand”
What is the killer revelation I am missing?
“The “refutation” you talk of is totally bogus”
This is a long-term longitudinal study of over half-a-million children.
“the relative risk of autistic disorder in the group of vaccinated children, as compared with the unvaccinated group, was 0.92”
(that’s less than 1%….) “and the relative risk of another autistic-spectrum disorder was 0.83” (even smaller still….)
“There was no association between the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.”
I don’t apologise for being sarcastic. Watch:
Hmm lemme see. Peer reviewed scientific paper in NEJM, half a million children studied, less than 1% coincidence between vaccination and autistic spectrum disorders Vs “some guys blog”
oooh that’s a tough one. Not sure I can decide. they seem so …so.. so. equal and equivalent.
“You go out and talk with some of the countless numbers of parents WORLDWIDE…”
If anecdotal evidence by, and let’s be clear, not-medical professionals, had any worth which it doesn’t…
” the same set of tragic results visited upon their kids through vaccination”
Okay, for the perpetually slow to learn: correlation doth not imply causation. Say it with me. Correlation does not imply causation. correlation does not imply causation.
that’s why we have long-term studies of populations that look for and cross-reference all the measurement of the actual incidence and statistical liklihood of finding a commonality and look, just look at what was found! Less than 1% agreement. That’s some number higher than 99.0 NO MATCH between the two groups.
“maybe, your cognitive dissonance will be shattered.”
Well there’s always that chance, but to what cognitive dissonance are you referring?
“What you at KYMAB seem to be doing is analogous to fixing Rolls Royce jet engines to a broken tricycle with no seat and no front wheel.”
See what I mean – no understanding.
Here we are being featured in Nature Biotech. When was your blog last featured in Nature?
Oh damn there I go, being sarcastic again!
Me: OK, Richard, leaving aside the leader of the New England Journal of Medicine study “Danish” Poul Thorsen’s conviction for defrauding the CDC of millions of dollars of funding supposedly to support this study (He spent it on houses, fast cars, that kinda stuff) the actual study is, how shall I put it, oh yes – crap.
It’s not long term at all and it studies children unsorted into vaccinated versus non-vaccinated at all, which is clearly the only valid study to make. Instead it looks at those who received the MMR in addition to other childhood jabs against kids who were given other childhood jabs but not the MMR. Autisms are typically staged regressions in development and clearly follow the pattern of accumulating jabs.
Your dismissal of “Anecdotal evidence” is bizarre. Science is the accumulation of observed data and the derivation of conclusions therefrom. These “anecdotes” are individual pieces of evidence and, as such, are perfectly susceptible to analysis. At the very least one can use them as pointers for further research. So “correlation doth not imply causation”, eh? Drink some alcohol. Be drunk. Drive your car. Try telling the arresting officer that “correlation doth not imply causation”.
My reference to the work of KYMAB was merely to imply that there is no point using flash, modern hi-tech to create ingredients for an archaic process which does not work and causes extensive damage . As I said, I am quite confident that the quality of your craftsmanship is excellent it is just that I see so many potentially beneficial uses of such skill. Vaccines are not onesuch.
Anyway, since you seem to like call and response routines, here’s a nice collection for you to memorise and repeat tomorrow at coffee break:
Dostoyevsky on Sarcasm:
1. Sarcasm is the last refuge of those with no real argument.
2. Sarcasm is the last refuge of the fool
3. Sarcasm is the Last Refuge of the Powerless.
4. Sarcasm is the last refuge of poor debaters.
5. Sarcasm is the last refuge of the incompetent
6. Sarcasm is the last refuge of scoundrels
7. Sarcasm is the last refuge of the weak mind.
8. Sarcasm is the last refuge of a defeated wit
9. Sarcasm is the last refuge of a microbial mind
At which point I stopped the conversation. As I had said at the start, it’s just too personal. Here is vested interest writ large and deep. Just like the GP who vaccinated his son through the regressions into deep autistic state, just like the Pharmaceutical company beholden to its shareholders to increase profits and to its staff to continue development and production, just like the Global Humanitarian Organisation leading zealous campaigns to eliminate illnesses or the politicians showing how much they care by funding them or, of course, just like the Centre for Disease Control, mandated by statute, as they are, to eliminate such ailments.
There is a vast industry, increasingly well funded and driven by wholly mistaken beliefs which, by are large, has no wish to question any of its fundamental tenets. For the human population to extricate itself from this tight grip is a daunting task, and I frequently think of the analogy of hordes of lemming careering over cliff edges, or supertankers crashing into cliffs. As they seek to further tighten their grip, through moves to obligate parents to submit their children to the vaccination regime, it becomes increasingly imperative to argue the case against this and to provide cogent and convincing evidence in support.
In the UK there is a present campaign to vaccinate teenagers and young adults with the MMR jab. it is argued that they missed out on this jab in their early childhood due to the fall out from Andy Wakefield and colleagues’ work and the national furore which followed it. Now there’s been “an epidemic” in the Swansea area of 1000 or so cases over the six months of winter. Mass publicity has attempted to draw in “the unvaccinated” to gain “protection” at health centres, GP surgeries and schools throughout the region.
Of course the rest of the country is also prompted by this and all of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are following suit. As is England where they hope to bring in one and a half million to be dosed.
Oh my, think I, at last they’re setting up an experiment we can maybe monitor. We will need each client’s full vaccination record and then to follow the outcomes over the following, shall we say, twelve months, followed up five and ten years later. Looking for:
- Strong adverse reaction, death, accute ASD. *
- Measles infection of either vaccine or natural type
- Other infectious disease incidence – mumps, rubella or any non jabbed
- Other collateral damage.
- Positive health outcomes
- SSPE and other degenerative conditions – MS etc
Reckon I could get Wellcome funding for such a study? To do some real, objective science. Could they be shocked or shamed into supporting such a study?
PS – I am quite confident, of course, that I can also find enough case histories of never vaccinated at all to provide the true control for this study and will work very hard to ensure there is no selection bias involved in designating such as valid.
* After I wrote this two possible connected deaths were recorded locally – one 25 year old male, already asthmatic, and a 17 year old school girl at a school were they were delivering “catch up jabs”.